This episode of The Path & The Practice features a conversation with Byron McLain. Byron is a partner and trial lawyer in Foley’s Los Angeles office focused on matters related to internal investigations, criminal defense, and complex civil trial litigation. Byron reflects on growing-up in New Orleans, attending Harvard University for college and Harvard Law School. He discusses the six years he spent as a prosecutor in the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Central District of California, investigating and prosecuting white-collar crime. He also reflects on his decision to return to private practice and join Foley & Lardner as a partner. Byron also discusses his role as the chair of Foley’s Racial Justice & Equity Pro Bono Practice Group. Finally, Byron provides great advice on the importance of staying open to new opportunities. Listen to the full discussion below.
Byron’s Profile:
- Title: Partner
- Foley Office: Los Angeles
- Practice Area: Government Defense & Investigations
- Hometown: New Orleans, LA
- College: Harvard University
- Law School: Harvard Law School
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Podcast Transcript
Alexis Robertson
Welcome to The Path and The Practice, a podcast dedicated to sharing the professional origin stories of the attorneys at Foley and Lardner LLP, a full service law firm with over 1000 lawyers across the US and abroad.
I’m your host, Alexis Robertson, Director of Diversity and Inclusion at Foley. In each episode of this podcast, you’ll hear me in conversation with a different Foley attorney. You’ll learn about each guest’s unique background, path to law school, and path to Foley and Lardner. Essentially, you’ll hear the stories you won’t find on their professional bios, and of course, you’ll learn a bit about their practice. Now let’s get to the episode.
Today I’m speaking with Byron McLain. Byron is a partner in Foley’s Los Angeles office, focused on white-collar defense and government investigations. In this conversation, Byron reflects on growing up in New Orleans, Louisiana, and he lays out the path that took him from New Orleans to Cambridge, where he attended Harvard for both college and law school. Byron also talks about the time he took off between the two, spending time as a Strategic Consultant at McKinsey, as well as attending school to write a couple of screenplays before deciding to go to law school.
This conversation is particularly fun because Byron’s a former prosecutor, so I get him to reflect on the six years he spent prosecuting crimes, and also to talk about why it was that he decided to return to private practice at Foley.
Byron talks about building his practice as a new attorney at a large law firm. He gives fantastic advice about public speaking, which you will soon hear Byron and I are kindred spirits in that we are complete nerds for public speaking. And I also get Byron to reflect on a new role he has at Foley, which has been the Chair of the firm’s Racial Justice and Equity Practice Group. As you’re going to soon hear, Byron has a knack for speaking, he has a knack for making connections with people, and I really hope you enjoy our conversation.
Byron McLain, welcome to the show. Let’s jump right in and have you give your professional introduction.
Byron McLain
Yes. So my name is Byron McLain. I am a partner at Foley and Lardner. I’ve been a partner there for the past two years, since November of 2018.
I’ve focused doing white collar defense work and our practice group, which is called the Government Enforcement and Defense Investigations Group, and I’m a trial lawyer, I love being in trial.
Alexis Robertson
We will get to all of that. And one of the reasons I do the professional intro is the point of the show is to trace the path you took to be able to now give that introduction.
So let’s set the specifics of your legal practice aside for now, and let’s start somewhat at the beginning. Where are you from? Where did you grow up?
Byron McLain
So I was born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana, and anyone who knows me well knows that New Orleans is a large part of who I am and who I identify with. I am a diehard New Orleans Saints fan. So I love football, love sports, but grew up in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans, and try to get back there as often as I can.
Unfortunately, my family suffered from Hurricane Katrina, which happened back in 2005. We got eight feet of water in our home, so my parents have moved up to Baton Rouge, but I love New Orleans, I love Louisiana, and I try to get back there as much as I can.
Alexis Robertson
Now, once again, I don’t know if I realized you were from New Orleans, and also this is where you get that Midwestern… So to me, I’m like, “Oh, you’re from New Orleans?”
Byron McLain
One thing that I hate is that I’ve lost my accent. So I went to college at Harvard in Boston, and unfortunately I think traveling up to the Northeast, one of the things I did lose was my southern accent, not being in New Orleans.
Alexis Robertson
I love it, though. It is more of a New Orleans, whereas most people are like, “Oh, I’m going to New Orleans.” Maybe they don’t say it like that, I’m over annunciating.
Byron McLain
“Nah-lins.”
Alexis Robertson
It’s fun. Exactly. So my brother-in-law actually moved to New Orleans about maybe six, seven years ago. So I’ve spent a little bit of time there. Not a lot. Really learned to love it, though.
And so I want to ask you more, what was it like growing up? Give me a little snapshot. What was little Byron McLain like?
Byron McLain
It was great. I will tell you, it’s such a family culture in New Orleans. Everybody knows everybody. They talk, what is it, like six or seven degrees of separation? In New Orleans it’s more like two or three.
The food, as you probably know, is amazing. This is king cake, Mardi Gras time. So I’ll be ordering a king cake from New Orleans sometime soon, within the next week to have delivered out here in Los Angeles where I live now with my wife and two daughters. But I love gumbo, so for Thanksgiving, I actually cooked gumbo for the family, which I don’t do often. I probably should do more often than I do. But love gumbo, love po’ boys. Shrimp po’ boys are my specialty that I love eating. And fortunately, actually, here in Los Angeles, we do have some spots where you can get New Orleans cuisine. So I love that. And as I mentioned, it is a culture of Saints football. You can’t live in New Orleans and not be a Saints football fan, which unfortunately causes me to cry sometimes, because the Saints have had some tough losses. But it’s a great family atmosphere, friendly atmosphere and you got to come back now, you hear?
Alexis Robertson
It is. I think it’s really a special place also because of the mix of all the cultures and the history there, and we won’t just make this a podcast about the history of New Orleans, but I completely agree.
Once I’ve visited a number of times, I was like, “I completely understand.” Of course there’s a lot to learn, but absolutely. Although I want to ask specifically about you. So say we found you when you were 10 or 12. What were you into? What was keeping you busy?
Byron McLain
So I thought as a little kid, I thought I was going to be a major league baseball player, so I’m actually a diehard baseball fan. New Orleans doesn’t have a baseball team, but I grew up watching the Chicago Cubs on WGN. You were either, growing up in New Orleans, you’re either going to be a Cubs fan or a Braves fan. The Braves came on TBS, the Cubs on WGN. And back when I first started watching baseball back in the eighties, the Cubs were losing 90 games a season, where the Braves were losing a hundred. So I thought I was picking the better team, and unfortunately I suffered in the nineties because the Braves were a great team and the Cubs were terrible. But I played first base, thought I was going to be a baseball player.
I loved speech and debate. I always loved talking. So that’s why law is a natural fit. I will tell you, I did think when I was younger, probably in high school, I actually thought I would go into politics. My ambition was to be the governor of Louisiana. I love that state. But obviously, things have changed over time, and obviously I’m here in Los Angeles now. But I was a very rambunctious kid. I was probably the kid that didn’t always do the right thing, and got disciplined quite often by my parents, amongst my siblings.
I have an older brother, five years older, and a younger sister, six years younger. So I’m definitely a middle child. But people will tell you that I did not suffer from lack of attention, ’cause I made sure I got as much attention as possible, so I was that kid.
Alexis Robertson
You figured that out.
Well, and tell me more about the high school time and maybe politics. Was that in your decision making when you were deciding on college?
Byron McLain
It was. So I went to a school called Ben Franklin High School in New Orleans. It’s a magnet school down there, and very, very known throughout the state for being an academic school.
And one of the things I got involved in was the Speech and Debate Club. In 10th grade. I ran for Vice… I guess it was the end of my ninth grade, I ran for vice president of the student council, and I gave a speech to my fellow ninth graders. And it just so happened that the teacher of the Speech and Debate class was in that auditorium session and she heard me. I just gave it, I didn’t read any notes, I just gave it spoke, spoke and…
Alexis Robertson
You just gave a contemporaneous speech?
Byron McLain
I did. I prepared, and I knew what I was going to say, but I just spoke from the heart and she absolutely loved it, and encouraged me to join the Speech and Debate team, to take her class. And from there it just dovetailed into run.
I ran for Youth Governor of Louisiana through the YMCA. YMCA has a Youth Governorship program. Did that, and when I was looking at colleges, I wanted to go somewhere where I could pursue my interest in politics, and government, and public service. And I learned that Harvard was the type of school that didn’t just want the smartest kids, but they wanted the future leaders in the United States. And so I applied there and was very blessed to get accepted.
I got in early action, but unfortunately for me, and talk more about this, but unfortunately when I first got accepted, my parents told me we couldn’t afford to go. I didn’t have the economic means to go there. I totally understood. I come from a very middle class, lower middle class family, and had gotten into a couple other schools where I’d gotten full scholarships. So in fact, I thought I was going to go into Tulane in New Orleans, but Harvard then gave me my financial aid package in the spring, and it made it so that although I had to pay some money, it made it financially possible for my… Exactly.
Alexis Robertson
It was possible.
Byron McLain
And so I guess one of the messages I would want to give to our listeners is anything is possible if you put your mind to it, if you put yourself in the right situation. One of the things I had to do was I had to sign up for, I think it was called Dorm Club, or basically some sort of a job where I had to clean the bathrooms. Literally, my job was to clean toilets in people’s rooms so I could help pay for my education.
Alexis Robertson
So that was your work study, that was what the work study would be.
Byron McLain
That was my work study, exactly. That was my work study job. And so I literally showed up to the school a week early, along with a few other students, and our job was to get the school ready by cleaning all the bathrooms, cleaning the rooms, so that would be ready for the students when they showed up, and that was my work study job.
Alexis Robertson
I have a number of things to say, well one is you’re taking me back to my own process, which… I don’t know, I applied to various places, and for me, I grew up in the Milwaukee area, so it was like, “I’ll probably go to Wisconsin.”
And you just apply, and I think my mom was like, “You should apply to Harvard.” I didn’t. But I ended up going to American University in DC, which is a private school, and it is not cheap. And similar story in that financial aid came and suddenly it was like, “All right, this is a decent enough scholarship to make this possible for us, which without this it is not.”
And also just not understanding navigating that process. My parents both went to college, but they were really relying on me to figure it out. I don’t know if that was your experience, but then also I was curious. Having that work study, you’re getting there early, so in a way it’s a little bit of time to acclimate, but also the dynamic is different.
Byron McLain
Absolutely.
Alexis Robertson
I don’t know how that felt for you at the time or how you made sense of it. Was it like, “That’s fine, I’ll do this ’cause I get to be here?” Or what were your feelings about it?
Byron McLain
I’ll tell you, that dynamic was different for me because again, being up in the Northeast, I had never been…
Alexis Robertson
That’s true.
Byron McLain
I’d never lived for any time period…
Alexis Robertson
Right out of the South, up to Cambridge.
Byron McLain
Out of the south. I was a southerner. Maybe I had traveled. I think in high school I maybe traveled to DC for a trip or something like that, but I didn’t travel much as a kid. We took road trips, but definitely had very rarely gotten on a plane.
But coming up to Boston, I realized what Southern hospitality was. And it’s not to say anything negative about Boston, it was a different mentality. I was literally walking down the street saying hello to people, and they were giving me strange looks like, “Why are you talking to me? Who are you?”
And I will tell you, quite frankly, after being up in Boston for a few months, I wanted to come home. I got homesick. I called my parents. I was like, “I’m coming home. I got to get back down to New Orleans.” And my parents said, “You know what? Stick it out. You’re going to be fine. We love you. We’re here to support you, but you can do this.” So it helped.
It was tough that first semester up in Cambridge, in Boston, in the Northeast, it was tough.
Alexis Robertson
That acclimation, that transition. I’m also laughing. You’re reminded me of something my brother-in-law said. So he moved from Michigan down to New Orleans with his now wife, and he’s taken on, what I would call her more Southern attributes. I don’t know what that means. I’m not going to define them, but there’s this level of, and I don’t mean this negatively, but a pace of life, hospitality.
Byron McLain
Absolutely.
Alexis Robertson
It’s okay to take your time to… You don’t need to be…
Byron McLain
Much slower.
Alexis Robertson
Go, go, go. No, you’re going to take the time to have that discussion with the person. And it’s different.
Byron McLain
It’s so interesting that you mentioned that too, because while I was in college, I did some summer internships, and I remember doing an internship in New York and I felt if everyone was just moving so quickly.
I had been used to… I was one who, I worked hard, I worked at a fast pace growing up, but that wasn’t the norm in New Orleans. To your point, it was much more of a slower pace. People took their time to enjoy the moment and get to know people. And I just felt as if in New York and in Boston, everything was like, go, go, go, go, go, go. And it was definitely a challenge getting used to that pace of life, constantly, where everyone was in a rush to get something done.
Alexis Robertson
I could definitely see that. So you do acclimate, or at least you didn’t move home. What’s your major? What are you focusing on while you’re in college?
Byron McLain
So my major at Harvard was initially Government because again, I thought I wanted to go into politics and that sort of thing. I actually also got involved in an organization called the Institute of Politics at the John F. Kennedy School of Government. And I will probably say I spent more of my time working with that organization during the school day than sometimes I spent studying for class, which was probably not the best idea initially, but I did that.
I realized while I was at Harvard, I didn’t want my entire experience to be consumed with government and politics, so I actually switched majors my freshman year to Economics and Afro-American studies. So I describe it as money and black people, how to get it, how to distribute it to my community. And so I majored in that, but still kept my interest in politics by being very involved in the Institute of Politics. And actually became, by my senior year became, or the end of my junior year, became the president of that organization. And that organization opened up so many opportunities to me. I remember one time I was in a meeting where I had to lead the meeting and former President Carter was there. So it was a very great opportunity for me to interact with dignitaries on a level that a kid from the city of New Orleans in the Ninth Ward never would’ve done.
Alexis Robertson
That’s amazing. I’ll admit, I’m still laughing at your majors of money and black people. That’s funny. Alternative way to describe them.
Byron McLain
Exactly.
Alexis Robertson
But also there’s something to be said for getting the opportunity to go to some of these institutions and what you’re exposed to be in the same room. Like you said, as you know, you’re leading a meeting in President Carter, or former President Carter’s also in the room. That’s amazing.
Not nearly the same, but I recall for some reason at American getting the opportunity to go to, I think it was a Clinton Foundation event. It was very last minute. I don’t know how I ended up there, but it was at Georgetown. And within 24 hours I find myself in a room with Bill Clinton. I want to say Don Cheadle was there. It was maybe Russell Simmons. It was something extremely random. But the only way that you’re able to get those just one up…
And I’m not shaking hands or talking to these individuals, but still just to be in the same room and hear them speak was because I’d had that opportunity to go to a new place. And not to say you can’t get that anywhere, but it’s funny because for you moving up to Boston, moving up to Cambridge, you’re suddenly in the epicenter of where those types of things can happen.
Byron McLain
Absolutely. Absolutely, and I had to pinch myself sometimes because I never would’ve thought I would’ve had those types of opportunities that were presented to me by being able to attend Harvard University. So it was great.
Alexis Robertson
Now I’m curious, I usually don’t ask this, but what did you do in the summers during college? Did you go home or did you stay?
Byron McLain
So a combination of both. So I would go home for a part of the summer, but I think my first summer I actually worked for my congressman from New Orleans in DC but that had kept that New Orleans connection there for me. My second and third summers I worked for an organization called SEO.
Alexis Robertson
Yep, familiar.
Byron McLain
Links you with investment banking and management consulting jobs. So given my economics background, I pursued those internships, and I was in New York for those internships. And it was a great opportunity and experience there.
And then I would say right after I graduated, because I wanted to get as close as I could back to the South, I actually moved to Atlanta and worked for a company down there, management consulting company McKinsey and Company down in the South.
Alexis Robertson
That is closing some gaps for me, because I was going to ask, I saw that you’ve, just looking on LinkedIn, that you took a few years off between college and law school. Specifically, what type of consulting was it?
Byron McLain
So it was strategic consulting. One of the areas… What was funny is I was in Atlanta doing a lot of strategic consulting for McKenzie, helping with business development for various companies we were hired by.
I will tell you, because of the times, I think this was near one of the first recessions of the two thousands, a lot of our job became basically advising companies on who to let go and who not to let go. And that was actually very tough because that was not my expectation going into the job, and it was hard for me, as a first year grad from college, basically going to a company and advising on who you need to basically fire.
So when that happened, I actually was like, “You know what…” I wanted to pursue other opportunities. I had always been interested in writing and so I dropped everything and said, “You know what? Let me move out to Los Angeles and try this writing thing that I’m interested in.”
Alexis Robertson
Tell me more about that. So what was the writing thing?
Byron McLain
Yes, I went to UCLA for their professional screenwriting school. I applied for that, and got in, and wrote two screenplays. One of them was called Jackson, which is basically about a minister from this, pastor from the South who was working in the Civil Rights movement, and the trials and tribulations he dealt with. And the other one, I’m blank on the name of the other script that I wrote, but I absolutely loved it. I loved writing, I loved writing the scripts. Actually, the next year actually wrote a novel as well. But what I realized about writing, is as much as I love to write, I also like to eat, and writing was not paying the bills. So it was during that time period I was like, “You know what? Let me go back, figure out what I want to do with my career and my life. And as much as I love writing, I can write on the side.”
So I actually went back to consulting. I actually joined Booz Allen for a year in their DC office, or Virginia office. Did that for a year. And during that time period, I applied to law school, because one of the things I remembered my mom had told me when I was young, she’s like, “Byron, you could convince a drowning man to have a drink of water.” ‘Cause I was always trying to convince my parents to do something or let me do something. And I didn’t appreciate the gravity of those words from my mom when I was young, but I was like, “wow.” I was like, “This is something that maybe I’m good at.”
And so I applied to law school. In my mind, I told myself as much as the Northeast was a great experience, I was not going to go back to Harvard, or up to the Northeast. I actually loved LA, so I actually applied to Stanford, applied to a couple other schools, and I was like, “Let me just apply to Harvard on a whim, just to keep the option open.”
Well, when I was visiting the schools and fortunately, I got accepted to all of the schools that I applied to. But as I was visiting, I actually fell in love with Harvard Law School, and particularly the Black Law Students Association. It’s BLSA. It’s one of the largest BLSAs in the nation, and I really appreciated how supportive they were of each other.
Alexis Robertson
The community.
Byron McLain
The community there, absolutely. That was so important to me. And so as much as I told myself after undergrad that I wasn’t going to go back up to the Northeast or to Harvard, I fell in love with it. And I actually ended up going back for law school.
Alexis Robertson
That’s exactly what you did.
And I’m going to pause you for one moment just because I am taking so much delight in your story. And as listeners know, for a lot of the guests, we have occasion to interact within the firm for a number of reasons, but that we wouldn’t necessarily have a reason for me to sit down and get your life story like this.
But to hear about going from management consulting, to pausing it, to screenwriting, writing a novel, going back to consulting, then to law school, I just think that is so fantastic, because it just shows how multifaceted we all are. And I can already see the different threads coming together that are super useful in your current practice. Maybe we’ll take the time to spell it out towards the end of the show, but the writing, as a trial lawyer or someone in… You write a lot, [inaudible 00:20:08].
Byron McLain
Telling a story.
Alexis Robertson
You’re a storyteller for sure. The style of writing might be different. The interest in government, back to your mom telling you that you could convince anyone of anything.
But I just beam as I hear these stories because I’m just like, “Yes!” We all have so many different threads in us and we figure out a way to bring them together professionally, In this podcast as attorneys, but in a variety of ways. But anyway, I stopped you.
Byron McLain
One thing I would add, and one thing it really taught me is in many ways as a child I was very scripted. And no pun intended, but I was the type of person who, okay, I knew what I wanted to do, I did it. I had a plan to getting it done. And sometimes you can’t be so scripted, you just don’t know what the future’s going to hold, and you have to be flexible.
And having the opportunity in between college and law school of these different careers, it actually introduced me to, “You know what? You want to want to have a plan, but you have to be flexible enough to veer off that plan sometimes.” And that has definitely benefited me in my professional life now as well.
Alexis Robertson
I am nodding profusely. Our CEO of Foley said nearly the exact same thing that you just said. You want to have a plan, but you have to be flexible, and I have a feeling a lot of people would say the same. But I do think for really driven type-A people, it can be very easy to chart that. You pick that path, put your head down, and it’s important to gut check it every once in a while.
You may very well stay on that path, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take a step over there and write a couple novels, or screenplays, or whatever. But okay, so you’re at law school. And for you, this is quite some time ago, but you do start at law school. What is the adjustment like to law school?
Byron McLain
For me, because I was now familiar with the Northeast at Harvard, so I had that familiarity. I think working in between gave me just a sense of what the real world was like. So the transition back to law school wasn’t that big of an adjustment for me as it was maybe for someone going straight through.
I loved law school, I loved studying law, but I also loved the interaction with the people who were there. I was a very relationship type person, and loved meeting new people, and that sort of thing. And so it was a great experience for me. For my summers, I still wanted to get back to Los Angeles. From being in Los Angeles, actually, I have a lot of extended family in the LA area, so if I knew if I wasn’t going to be in New Orleans, I want to be in Los Angeles. So I spent my summers interning in Los Angeles, and so I still had that West Coast connection. But overall my law school experience was just… I loved it.
Alexis Robertson
Now I’m assuming you knew that you wanted to do litigation, is that right?
Byron McLain
I did. So again, because of the qualities of being able to tell a story, convince someone of what the right path is, I thought litigation was a perfect fit.
And quite honestly, when I first interned for a law firm the summer after my [inaudible 00:22:59] year, they put me in the litigation department that I just really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the writing. There’s a lot of writing in litigation as well. It’s a different type of writing, which I had to get used to, but I enjoyed that aspect of it as well. So with the litigation was the perfect fit.
Alexis Robertson
Well, and I try to be very open with the listeners about my bias, at least when it comes to legal profession, as a former litigator. I do, I will have a tendency to look at litigators and be like, “Yeah, clearly you were going to be a litigator. I knew that.”
Whereas when I’m talking to those in other practice groups, you will see me ask them more about, “Well, why IP? Why transactional?” But for the litigators, I’m like, “Of course you did. Everybody wants to be a litigator.” So hopefully the listeners can see through… Parse aside or put aside Alexis’s bias. And then I know just by looking at your background, Byron, you spent the first five years of your career at another large law firm in the LA area that wasn’t Foley, and then you spent six and a half years as a US attorney.
Byron McLain
Federal prosecutor.
Alexis Robertson
Also in the LA area. So I don’t know, and I want to talk about each segment of your career, if you don’t mind.
Byron McLain
Absolutely.
Alexis Robertson
So you joined a law firm as a litigator. How was it for you adjusting to that life, and what did you do to learn how to litigate?
Byron McLain
So I really loved the people at the other law firm that I worked at. Obviously as a junior associate, it ended up being, it’s [inaudible 00:24:19] your document review and very entry-level work, which is important to know, and important to have that skillset. But for me, and I learned a lot during those first five years, but I was really, really seeking an opportunity to actually be in the courtroom. And unfortunately I didn’t get a lot of that experience. I did some on pro bono matters that I worked on, but as the junior associate wasn’t the one making the arguments in the courtroom, and I really wanted that.
So one of my mentors recommended to me that, “Hey, you should apply to the US Attorney’s office.” And so I actually met with some folks, tried to figure out what they… I didn’t even really know quite honestly what an AUSA was, or what a federal prosecutor did. I wasn’t introduced to that, definitely not in my childhood, not even when I was in college, or during my early business career. So part of it was learning what they did. And as I learned more and more, the fact that they were representing the government, they were the good guys, they were the ones who were making sure that justice was being done. It hit all the buckets that I was really, really passionate about. Plus I got a chance to argue in court. And when I saw that opportunity, I jumped at it. And I absolutely loved my experience as a Federal Prosecutor.
Alexis Robertson
And tell me more. So back to the law students listening, so what does the US Attorney do? What did you do?
Byron McLain
So basically our one client is the United States. So we’re in charge of basically prosecuting people who commit offenses against the United United States government, whether it might be gun charges, fraud charges, and fraud can include tax-related offenses. My focus later on in my career was in the healthcare area, and we can talk more about that and how that led to me having a career at Foley. But basically you’re the one who’s standing in front of the judge and saying, “I, Byron McLain, on behalf of the United States, am pursuing this case to either prosecute this person on X, Y, Z offense because they did something, allegedly, wrong.”
And what I really enjoyed about that job, too, and I think what made me good at that job, was not just the articulating a penis in court, but also listening. A lot of times you have the defense attorneys that would call you up and make their pitch as to why their client shouldn’t be charged with something, or should get a better plea. And although I oftentimes didn’t necessarily do what they wanted me to do, it was good to… It opened my mind to, “Okay, they’re viewing these same set of facts, completely different than I viewed them when I got it. And maybe they had some information that I didn’t have about their client.” And so it really opened my eyes to not just being a good speaker, but also being a good listener, which I think is really, really important.
Alexis Robertson
So my little tiny bit of exposure to this side of legal practice happened when I was in college. I was an investigative intern at the Public Defender Service, so it’s the other side, and because it’s Washington DC it is against the government at that point.
And what you said is exactly right, the different set of facts, the volume of being in court, which I’m actually curious if you could say a few more words about, because I imagine there’s some sort of assignment system for cases, there’s some level to the cases you handle and you are given those and you are now tasked with moving them forward. Is that accurate? Is that how that works?
Byron McLain
Yeah. So in fact, you might have… There’s different levels. So there’s like a docket of cases that might come in, and there’s someone who’s assigned to magistrate court every day amongst the junior federal prosecutors. And so you’d be in front of a Magistrate Judge, someone who would be making their first appearance, and you’d have to argue on behalf of the government during that first appearance. It might not be necessarily your case, but you’re handling the intake of cases.
Then the other set is you actually have your own cases where you’re working with agents to develop the facts and to make sure the government’s representing their interest in court. And so you might be in front of a specific District Court Judge. Ultimately, I’d say 95% of cases result in some sort of plea agreement. But you have those cases that go to trial.
And I will tell you, there was a time period where I had, I think it was four trials in the span of five months. Each trial was at least two weeks long, and I absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it. I was in heaven. Now, my wife will tell you I was in heaven because I had two very young twin girls at home, and it was forcing me to be away from the home, and I didn’t have to deal with them crying at night and that sort of thing.
Alexis Robertson
Your wife may be a tiny bit resentful of that time, just a little tiny bit.
Byron McLain
But she was so supportive and was like, “You know what? I know this is why you’re at the US Attorney’s office. This is the experience you wanted.” She was like, “Do you. I got it.”
And it was just amazing being able to… How I mentioned to you, giving that speech in front of my ninth grade class, it was similar to giving it speech in front of a jury. I very rarely use notes. When I speak, I like to either talk from… I might have a PowerPoint and I’ll talk from the PowerPoint, but I like to just talk to the jury. I think it’s more authentic. And it was a very powerful time for me and a very successful time.
Alexis Robertson
And you’ve just said something that I think is also really important for anybody who’s working on public speaking, it can feel the same, or actually it will feel physically the same regardless of the venue. And so for anybody who’s looking to improve their public speaking, just getting the opportunity to speak…
So for you to say, “Me speaking and that thing in high school, or college, or whatever, it felt really similar to what I was routinely doing jury trials.” I just think is a really important observation. And also, this is the former litigator in me who did not get much court time at all, but also I am someone who would prefer to have some loose notes and then to what I need in the moment.
Whereas I have met a lot of people who will almost write verbatim. They will memorize, and that also works, too. But I’m someone who’d prefer not to worry about, “I said the wrong word, and now I’m off the page.” But I just think that’s so important about the practice of public speaking and you get muscle memory for it.
Byron McLain
So two points, so to piggyback off of what you just said: practice makes perfect. You definitely… Putting yourself in that position to be able to do it, you’ll get better and better over time. So I know a lot of people might be scared of being in the courtroom, and scared of public speaking, it just takes practice to do it.
But the second is, just because people like me and you speak off of minimal notes doesn’t mean that we’re not prepared. Preparation is key. And I will tell people, “My most important audience wasn’t the jury, it was my wife and my mother-in-law beforehand who I practiced in front of giving my opening statement or my closing argument.” And they can say, “Hey, Byron, you know what? You need to dumb this down, or you need to say this differently because it’s not… You need to say the layman’s terms, not the legalese that you’re using.” Those were my most important audiences. And it took that practice in order to perfect it so that when I was in the courtroom, it was natural.
Alexis Robertson
Because if you practice it many times it’s literally making those grooves in the brain between your neurons that you…
There’s a moment where I think depending on what you’re doing, you almost tap in. And if someone asked you to say, to recite what you just said, you’re like, “I can’t. I don’t know what I said.”
Byron McLain
Exactly. You know what? You read my mind. One of the things I was going to say, if I were to give…
Alexis Robertson
It’s flow, you’re in a flow state.
Byron McLain
If I were to give an opening statement or a closing argument 10 different times, it would be different each time, the same substance would be there, but you have to go in the moment. You have to read the visual cues from the jury if you’re in the courtroom. What’s resonating, what’s not? So, absolutely, that definitely resonates.
Alexis Robertson
I didn’t realize that, apparently, speaking’s a favorite topic of mine. And obviously for me, the life I have now, the context for me is a lot different. But I will now intentionally put myself in the position where I’m doing some sort of public speaking, or speaking a bit off the cuff, because I just think it’s such an important skill.
Byron McLain
Absolutely.
Alexis Robertson
And it’s something that you can continue working on forever. But anyway, we will get back on track.
Byron McLain
Yes.
Alexis Robertson
Sorry, I just think that’s so important to talk about.
So what was that transition from government back to private practice? How did that happen?
Byron McLain
So I had been at, as you mentioned, I had been at the US Attorney’s office for about six and a half years. And for people who don’t know, working for the government is definitely… Your salary’s much lower than when you’re working for a private firm. And as I mentioned I had…
When I was working for the government, I actually had twin girls that were born my first year when I started working there. And, quite frankly, when they were born and I realized I was having twins, “I was like, oh my God, what have I done? I’ve taken a substantial pay cut.”
Alexis Robertson
You just left that large law firm salary. You’re like, “Okay, here we go.”
Byron McLain
Yes, we now have two kids. We weren’t expecting to have two kids, maybe one, but definitely not two at the same time. But you know what, again, my wife was so supportive. She’s like, “Listen, we can stick it out. We can do it.” Well, as they got older and got to turn five and six years old, we were looking at elementary schools to send them to, and we wanted to send them to a private school here in LA, but there’s no way I’d be able to afford it with my salary at the US Attorney’s Office. And quite frankly, the learning curve, although it’s very, very steep at the beginning, it had plateaued a little bit.
I had taken on the deputy, there’s some deputy positions in the office, some leadership positions. I was the Healthcare Fraud Coordinator in the office in the Fraud Division. And so it was at that time where I was like, “You know what? Let me transition back to a private firm experience.” But I wanted to make sure I found the right fit. I wanted to make sure that I was at a firm that was very personable, very family oriented, the things that were important to me growing up in New Orleans, but that could also leverage my expertise as a trial lawyer, as someone who had done a lot of healthcare fraud cases, and Foley was that perfect fit.
As I met more and more people at Foley, I just grew more and more in love with the firm, just their personalities. And I will tell you, one thing that was important to me was to join a firm as a partner. And Foley was willing to have me come in as a partner at the firm, an equity partner, and it has just been a great fit. So I’ve been very, very blessed.
Alexis Robertson
So how’s it been building your practice at Foley over the past, now it’s over two years? And you already mentioned what you do, but remind us again of what your expertise is.
Byron McLain
So I’m in the white-collar defense group, and I will tell you it was daunting at first because again, my only client for the past six and a half years had been the US government. And you don’t have to go out and pitch work to the US government. The work comes to you.
And so I knew it was going to be a challenge, but again, building on the skillset of, I’m a very social person. I love people, I love interacting with people, and Foley gave me the platform to be able to get to know people within the firm. So they helped me travel to our different offices throughout the United States. We have over 20, 25 offices in the United States, and I went and visited my colleagues in person. Get to know what they do, what I do so that we could leverage each other’s skillsets.
But also reaching out to my contacts that I’ve developed since law school, since, quite frankly, since my childhood. I have friends in New Orleans who are now taking on bigger and more prestigious roles, and reaching out to them, letting them know, “Hey, I’m now at a law firm. This is what I do. I’m a defense attorney that focuses on things going to trial, but also focuses on healthcare matters, and False Claims Act work, and now specifically PPP loan work, since that’s a new area.” And leveraging that skillset to reach out to clients. And I will tell you, it has been very successful. In fact, over the past year, obviously with the pandemic I got concerned that maybe my development would take a hit, but actually this has been one of my most successful years bringing in legal work. Hopefully it’ll continue to grow from here, and Foley has given me that platform.
Alexis Robertson
It’s funny. So for me, I’ve now been at the firm for a little over a year, and you’ve been at Foley a year longer than I have. And so for me coming in, and once again, it’s not that I… I don’t want anyone to think I think anything negative about someone who joins laterally, but I do know it can just be very hard to get integrated into an organization when it’s not a place that you’ve been in for years and years or started right away.
And so my impression joining the firm, I was surprised when I found out that you joined laterally, at the time only maybe a year or so before, because you do appear to be very integrated within the fabric of the firm, which, like you said, I think is a testament to who Foley is, but also a testament to your relationship-building skills. Back to what I said about these threads that you see throughout someone’s career, so we see why that superpower is valuable and how you’re using it now in this current context. And we have a little bit more time together, but there’s a couple additional things I have to make sure I get to.
One, can you talk a bit about the healthcare aspect of your practice? Because at this point, I’ve had a number of members of your group, the Government Enforcement Defense Investigations group, but none with the healthcare type of expertise. So I would love if you could elaborate a bit on that.
Byron McLain
Sure.
So when I was a former Prosecutor at the US Attorney’s Office, I had prosecuted a case involving kickbacks by a pharmaceutical company. And one of the things you learned is that once you touch a particular area at the US Attorney’s Office, you become an expert in it.
So that was a particular case that actually went to trial, it was a very intense trial. It was, I think it involved nine different defendants, and I think one or two of them actually decided to go to trial at the end. But I became an expert on the process of prosecuting kickback claims, and from there started working. Opioid use had become a big, big deal. So I learned more about that area. And the US Attorney’s office said, “Hey, we’d love for you to be the coordinator of all of our different healthcare fraud cases that we’re dealing with.”
So it was my job to track the cases, make sure they were moving forward, make sure that we had agents from our Health and Human Services OIG office, working with AUSAs to tackle some of the biggest healthcare issues that were at the forefront. And unfortunately, where there’s a lot of money from the United States government, there’s also going to be a lot of fraud. And so the healthcare industry, the government pays billions, if not trillions, of dollars in healthcare reimbursements for different things. And unfortunately, a percentage of that is fraud related, and so it’s a constantly growing and active industry to be in.
Alexis Robertson
Then during private practice, you essentially are able to guide clients who are going through that, I don’t want to say, “process,” but who are…
Byron McLain
So now I can help clients who are dealing with, “Hey, the government is alleging that we did something improper.” I can help them navigate that process. Also, too, for our clients, what I can do is make sure that they don’t get in that situation upfront so we can make sure that they’re complying with all the rules that they’re supposed to be complying with, and doing everything appropriate as far as the government’s concerned. And that’s also, on not just a criminal aspect, but a civil aspect as well.
Alexis Robertson
That makes a lot of sense, because there are so many aspects to what a government enforcement and defense related practice can be. That makes a ton of sense.
All right, one other thing I have to ask about, and we haven’t touched on it all, is the fact that you are the chair of Foley’s Racial Justice and Equity Pro Bono Practice Group. It’s a group that I think at this point, and we are now in late January of 2021, the firm has had for, is it about… Are we at six months now or a little bit longer?
Byron McLain
Started this summer, probably in about June or July of this past summer.
Alexis Robertson
Let me set the stage for it a little bit, which is, it was one of the many things that the firm did in response to what I’ve been calling the Racial Justice Movement, with the murder of George Floyd and so many other things that have happened, launching this practice group was one of the things the firm did in response, and I’ll toss it to you to explain a little bit about what the group is and what kind of matters it focuses on.
Byron McLain
And I must say I must give kudos to three of our African-American female senior counsel at the firm, Lauren Champaign, Senayt Rahwa, and Olivia Singlemann, because this was their brainchild. They were like, “Look, we’re in a moment unlike any other, and we want to do something about it.” And I was so proud of Foley to providing them for that platform to express their ideas and their viewpoints. And then to come up with, “You know what? What let’s create this practice group.”
And so as a partner at the firm, I’m chairing the practice group, but they are the lifeblood behind it and really brought it to fruition. And so really what the practice group does is gives people in all of our local offices and opportunity to work on pro bono matters that relate to racial justice and inequity. So two of the national things we put into place is that people were like, “You know what? We want continue to do election protection work. We just had a recent election in November, and we want to make sure that people’s rights aren’t being violated. They’re able to vote the way in which we’re supposed to.” So we encourage people to go out and volunteer at the polls. And we had over 80 professionals at Foley dedicate over 2000 pro bono hours to making sure that people’s rights were not being violated when they voted.
Another thing we did was we have protest legal observer work, as there’ve been a lot of protests in the United States over the racial injustices that have occurred. What Foley put into place was we’re going to allow our attorneys to go out and observe these protests and document what’s happening so that law enforcement is not violating the rights of those that are out there protesting, and make sure that they have a vehicle to make sure their rights are being satisfied.
And so those are the two things we’ve done nationally. But I would say, really, a lot of the groundbreaking work that Holy has done in this area has been from the bottom up. All of our offices, we have a new partnership with an organization called Black Connect out of our new office, where we’re advising black companies on the things they need to do to get started as small businesses, and to grow, and to prosper. We have, out of our Miami office, we represent the Strong Girls Legislative History Project, which is another thing that we’re doing there. And we’re representing an individual by the name of Jimmy Galligan out of our DC office who was discriminated against when he was in high school. A racial slur had been sent to him, and he put it up on Facebook, and now the person who made the racial slur is now trying to sue him. So we’re defending him in that lawsuit.
So just a lot of different things we’re doing in all of our offices, and it’s because of the hard work of the many associates and lawyers and professionals at Foley from the ground up that really makes this such a great practice group, and I’m so proud to be the leader of it.
Alexis Robertson
Well, and last I heard the group has, I think, over 200 members. And this is work, and I like to think Foley would be doing anyway, but giving it that formalized structure so that there’s more resources and ability to work across offices and to work with outside organizations, like you said, on issues that impact racial justice and equity.
And also, thank you so much for mentioning Olivia, Senayt Rahwa, and Lauren. They have also all been on the podcast.
Byron McLain
Awesome.
Alexis Robertson
So for anyone who’s listening and would like to hear, and let me repeat their names again, the stories of Olivia Singlemann, Senayt Rahwa, or Lauren Champaign, you can find them just by scrolling back in the queue, so please, please do that. But, I actually really do… It’s one of those moments where it’s like I take my hat off, hat tip to the work that the firm has been doing, that you’ve been doing, and also they’re all considered vice-chairs of the group as well, because it’s been tremendous and a sight to beholds.I was able to join one of the recent calls, and I was just so impressed by the work that was being done.
Well, I’m going to switch gears once more to hit on one thing that I believe you are doing within your own community. And I’m going to apologize, ’cause I think I’m going to get the role incorrect, but I also know that you were, I’m not sure if it was an appointment, but you have a role within, is it the local police commission or an oversight commission in LA?
Byron McLain
Right. So I am a member of the Los Angeles Police Commission’s Advisory Committee, and the task of the advisory committee was to come up with recommendations to the Police Commission where changes can be made at the LAPD to make sure that, again, racial justice and equity is being pursued.
So those final recommendations have not been made public yet. They will be made public probably within the next few months by the Police Commission itself based on the work in part that the advisor committee has done. So I was very honored and privileged to be asked by the Police Commissioner to be a part of that advisory committee.
Alexis Robertson
That’s absolutely wonderful, and really just a testament to all of the work you’re doing both in Foley and in your community. And I know you’ve had a very busy past, I think, 12 months or so were my impressions because of all of this.
Well, and as we wind down, two final questions. One, is there anything else that we haven’t touched on that you’d like to raise? And then after that is, so what is your advice to somebody who is thinking of navigating a legal career or in the midst of one?
Byron McLain
The advice that I would give to someone is be open to new opportunities. Don’t close the door on yourself to any opportunity that might present itself, and something that you think might be a challenge is an opportunity for you. And I would say, you can do it. You can do anything you put your mind to.
And, based on the mentorship relationships I’ve had, based on the people who have lifted me up in my past, I’ve realized that, and then a testament to someone who can achieve beyond their wildest dreams. And I would just encourage everyone to do that as well. And I’d love to be a resource, so if anyone wants to reach out to me, or contact me from my bios on the Foley website, I’m happy to be as supportive as I can because so many people did it for me, and I think we just have to give back in that regard.
Alexis Robertson
Well, you answered my final, final question. So, listeners, do you hear that? Please reach out to Byron if there’s any questions you have.
And with that, Byron, I’ll just say thank you so much for being on the show.
Byron McLain
Well, thank you so much for having me, and thank you for doing this.
Alexis Robertson
Thank you for listening to The Path and The Practice. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and join us again next time. And if you did enjoy it, please share it, subscribe, and leave us a review, as your feedback on the podcast is important to us.
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Author(s)
Alexis P. Robertson
Director of Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion
[email protected]